Doctor Who Club of Australia

[kangamac]

"No need to have a canon debate"

"Need" is irrelevant.

Desire is perfectly acceptable.

Fans of DW - or any other Human endeavour where it is appropriate to consider the canonical aspect - have debated, do debate and will continue to debate the aforementioned factor.

"I'll only accept that there is a Doctor Who canon when the BBC publishes a list that declares that it contains every canonical story."

Indeed. You are perfectly entitled to hold your opinion, as I am and so are others. That's what makes "fandom" - of DW or otherwise - such an interesting phenomenon.

"And since that's never gonna happen,"

Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition, as you never know what surprising developments the future might hold.

Good luck with it.

"anyone who proclaims there is a canon is acting without the permission of the legal owner and hence without any authority or validity."

There is the issue of canonicity - regardless of its present status.

And as previously stated: "the rest is up for debate until someone in authority makes a ruling on the matter".

Until then, it is up to the individual to decide for themself - as to whether or not there is such a thing as canonicity - and if so, exactly what it is. It is not a particularly satisfactory state of affairs, but it is the current state of affairs.

[Greg]

Why isn't it a satisfactory state of affairs? Because everything hadn't been neatly killed, labelled, had a pin shoved through it, and put in a glass case?

You say 'Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition', and make it sound like a criticism. Tell me, then, how trying to define a Doctor Who canon isn't about stating a very large number of absolutes? And what is the point of having a canon if you don't make absolute decisions?

I'm happy to stand by my statement that the BBC will never publish a list of Doctor Who stories that are canon. Won't happen. Impossible. (Any more absolutes you'd like?) Not the least reason for this is that the BBC makes money from licensing others to produce official Doctor Who material, and they're not going to interfere with that by declaring licensed products to be not canon.

And nobody else has the authority, because nobody else legally owns the product.

All the rest is just talk, and no matter how interesting it is, no matter how compelling or convincing it is, it is just an unofficial view with absolutely no status. Any 'canon' produced through it just isn't a canon canon.

[kangamac]

"Why isn't it a satisfactory state of affairs?"

Actually, I stated: “It is not a particularly satisfactory state of affairs".

My intention was to indicate that while it is not the end of the world - pardon the pun - it can be annoying or irritating on occasion. It was not intended to imply that it was a big deal - merely a matter for rumination - and perhaps some spirited debate.

In any case, I made the statement simply because a lack of clear canonicity can leave everything in a state of uncertainty. It can make a straightforward discussion on a specific aspect of DW far more ambiguous and complicated than it needs to be.

Without a clear-cut canonicity to follow or refer to, it can become difficult to find common ground. If neither individual has at their disposal an accurate compilation of the facts required, or differing views on what those facts are, it can be extremely difficult for either party to reach an agreement or resolution on the matter being discussed.

"Because everything hadn't been neatly killed, labelled, had a pin shoved through it, and put in a glass case?"

Canonicity in this instance refers to set of artistic works that are established as genuine and complete. I was unaware that it involved such a violent process. I believe that what you are referring to above is known as entomology – or possibly taxonomy.

“You say 'Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition', and make it sound like a criticism.”

No. It was merely an observation based upon personal experience. I made the statement and provided an outline of the reasoning it was based upon.

I did not make it sound like anything – other than a simple passing observation. The rest was done by your imagination.

“Tell me, then, how trying to define a Doctor Who canon isn't about stating a very large number of absolutes?”

I never stated that establishing a canon for DW would not involve stating a very large number of absolutes. Please show me where I did.

I could be mistaken, but I get the impression that you have confused the two separate subjects of canonicity and prediction. However, I may have misinterpreted your intention.

My earlier comment “Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition” was in relation to the art of prophesy – not canonicity. I had hoped that the rest of that sentence “as you never know what surprising developments the future might hold” would have made that clear. If it did not, then I hope I have now made it clear.

The art of prophesy is to predict what is going to happen. In other words, it deals with the future. Canonicity refers to set of artistic works that are established as genuine and complete. In other words, that which already exists. They are normally two separate subjects – unless you wish to predict what a future canon will and will not include.

“And what is the point of having a canon if you don't make absolute decisions?”

I would agree with you on this. That is why I never made a comment stating otherwise.

“I'm happy to stand by my statement that the BBC will never publish a list of Doctor Who stories that are canon.”

As you are entitled to do so.

Likewise, I will stand by my previous statement: “Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition, as you never know what surprising developments the future might hold.”

“Won't happen. Impossible. (Any more absolutes you'd like?)”

If you feel the need to supply more, then by all means do so. However, you need not trouble yourself on my behalf. I have already read enough of your "absolutes" to reach my present conclusion that you are unwise to use them in the case of prophesy – for reasons previously supplied.

However, as I have also previously stated: “Still, if everyone agreed on everything, life would probably be less interesting...”

“Not the least reason for this is that the BBC makes money from licensing others to produce official Doctor Who material, and they're not going to interfere with that by declaring licensed products to be not canon.”

Indeed. In fact, I would consider that to be about the best case for there never being an official canon established for the TV series. Money often overrides any other concern in a wide variety of circumstances. Remember, I stated: “Stating absolutes is always a risky proposition”, I did not state: “Stating absolutes is always incorrect or wrong”.

“And nobody else has the authority, because nobody else legally owns the product.”

At present, you are correct. However, as we are fans of a TV series that deals with time, hopefully the concept of thinking fourth dimensionally - or thinking ahead - is not unknown to you. When words such as “never” or “impossible” are used – especially without condition or clarification – I tend to cringe.

They can both be used to imply a specific condition that may last forever. "Forever" is a very long time. What happens a century or two from now regarding DW can be guessed at – it cannot be stated as irrefutable fact.

“All the rest is just talk, and no matter how interesting it is, no matter how compelling or convincing it is, it is just an unofficial view with absolutely no status.”

Of course this is all just “talk” – this is a message board.

And I agree with you. The topic can sometimes be very compelling and interesting.

“Any 'canon' produced through it just isn't a canon canon.”

Certainly not. It is for someone who is in a position of authority or influence to establish canon – not a group of fans.

PS: Clever double use of “canon”.

Cheers,

[Greg]

Or, to put it another way, we are at substantial agreement, except that you are happy to expend energy on whether something is canon whereas I don't see the point.

The main reason to object to fans discussing canon comes down to those individuals who use it as a way of belittling others - be they other fans, or the people who worked on the item(s) that they don't consider canon (which is often shorthand for 'I don't like it so it doesn't count', 'I've never seen/heard/read it so it doesn't count' or 'I can't afford it so it doesn't count').

If you want to discuss canon as an intellectual exercise, go ahead - although all you'll ever get is 'your own version of real Who', which is of very limited use other than possibly generating some personal good feelings. If that works for you, great.

I find that canon discussions bring out some people's bad natures, which tends to make other, more timid, folk keep quiet and even stop visiting online forums.

[charlie]

[kangamac]

"Or, to put it another way, we are at substantial agreement, except that you are happy to expend energy on whether something is canon whereas I don't see the point."

Well, as you correctly surmised below, I do indeed expend energy upon it because I consider it an intellectual exercise. It can be most enjoyable - and even rewarding - particularly when another person puts the effort into their posts.

If they post in a manner that imaginative, insightful or intelligent - or perhaps all three - the discussion can be educational and entertaining. I don't necessarily mean aducational about DW lore specifically, but more in regard to Human nature - sorry again.

As the Doctor once said: "As we learn about each other, so we learn about ourselves" - or words to that effect.

I enjoy learning to view matters from a perspective that is not my own. Not only can it be a positive within DW fandom, but perhaps in the wider world as well. I may not always be successful, but that is no reason to stop trying. Anyway, time will tell...

"The main reason to object to fans discussing canon comes down to those individuals who use it as a way of belittling others - be they other fans, or the people who worked on the item(s) that they don't consider canon"

Your concern is understandable. I enjoy a spirited debate. I enjoy being challenged about my beliefs. I enjoy being forced to think about my views. I enjoy the little concessions and gallantries that two debaters may pay one anoher at the height of "battle". However, I do not enjoy it becoming "personal" or "nasty".

After all, you can disagree strongly with another individual and yet still like them or respect them at the same time.

"(which is often shorthand for 'I don't like it so it doesn't count', 'I've never seen/heard/read it so it doesn't count' or 'I can't afford it so it doesn't count')."

Yes, I do not like tat approach myself. If something is canonical, then my personal like or dislike of that fact is irrelevant. As an example, I absolutely detested and loathed the costume that the sixth Doctor chose for himself in "The Twin Dilemma", however I would never dream of questioning its canonicity - because it is not up to me.

"If you want to discuss canon as an intellectual exercise, go ahead - although all you'll ever get is 'your own version of real Who', which is of very limited use other than possibly generating some personal good feelings. If that works for you, great. "

And perhaps some limited good feelings amongst othrs with similar views. In any case, hopefully it will provide for some entertaining discussions. As for the question of canonicity, I obviously have no idea of what an official version may or may not contain.

At present I generally limit myself to the TV series - and TV series spin-offs - because hopefully, there is less room for disagreement. That is not to say that I am not open to the other forms of media that DW has appeared in, just that the rest currently has an ambiguous nature for many.

"I find that canon discussions bring out some people's bad natures, which tends to make other, more timid, folk keep quiet and even stop visiting online forums."

That would be a shame. After all, one would hope that at the end of the day, we are all fans of DW - despite our differing opinions. In the end, that is what matters.

PS: I realize that some of the views I sometimes express may cause some individuals to regard me as ecentric or unusual, but I'm very comfortable and content with that.

[charlie]