Doctor Who Club of Australia

[dave]

I finally have a problem with Moffat's DW stories: he doesn't like people to die. Even those who were consumed by the Vashta Nerada during this tale managed to survive in virtual form, everyone who was in the library at the time of the awakening of the VN were returned to corporeal form, as was Donna, and everyone lives happily ever after; even River. Ugh.

I must admit, I was waiting for some twist, some element not obvious to us from the first half, which would cast a different light on things, and it didn't come. It was a fine story, but not one of Moffat's best, Ifelt. I'm wondering if the Doctor has just changed his own future by saving River, or if he was crying when he gave her the sonic screwdriver as he knew her physical existence was coming to an end, despite the knowledge of her continued survival in the Library. Also, if the Library can hold people's physical forms in mid-teleport and then re-assemble them later, could it assemble a new body for someone saved in its data? Could it return those yet saved back into corporeal form?

It seems Moffat is setting things up for the future, and that we'll be seeing more of Professor River Song, but I wonder what the nature of their relationship will be? She makes references to him coming when she calls him, but also of travelling with him. Do they travel for some time together before she leaves, having been told how to contact him, somewhat like Martha recently? Under what circumstances does he tell her his real name? Happily, it seems she's not from the 20th Century, which would be a change I'd welcome. I'm looking forward to seeing where that all goes, as I really like the character.

[Tegan]

A great two parter!

One thing that double episodes have had in the past is a bit of a let down because all the big ideas are used in the first part, so the second suffers by comparison.

This one had even bigger things happen than last week! I loved it.

OK some things were sort of obvious, but handled really well.

I think it was quite deliberately aimed at scaring little kiddies (a truly commendable aim, IMHO) and did it well. It also let the kiddies down with the happy ending.

But there was plenty in it for the grown ups as well.

All told, a very satisfying story.

[Panecea]

[Dazza]

Absolutely brilliant. The future of Doctor Who appears to be in safe hands.

[KnottyEmily]

Fantastic episode. Moffat really seems to be laying some ground work for the next Doctor....Will we ever find out what his real name is? Or at least the reason he told River. It must be something bad because she was sorry she had to tell him, which means that by telling him she 'spoiled' something that's going to happen in his future....

[Greg]

I'm still digesting this one. It's good, but...

The introduction of someone from the Doctor's future is a good idea but fraught with peril. At this point, we don't know when David Tennant will leave the series, and yet all the comments about the future appear to indicate that the Doctor was in his 10th incarnation - maybe. Also, they'll need to get around to it sharpish as this is the last story for River, so they don't want her to look too much older in her later stories, as they happened earlier in her life.

The Vashta Narada seemed to be a credible threat - at least until they vanished from the story. Where were the Vashta Narada after the people were teleported back in? I'd hate to think I missed an important plot point, but it seems to me that not everyone should have been saved as the Vashta Narada would still have been lurking...

I'm slightly cautious what the non-fan viewers thought of this story. Doctor Who has returned as a critical and popular success, but how does a story like this play with those used to simpler story telling (like a large proportion of TV)? The fact that it is a popular success with lots of viewers means the BBC will keep making it - but if it becomes a show that is the masses of viewers don't want to think too hard while watching, will the audience dwindle? When will the BBC start cutting its budget, if it doesn't keep the audience?

[Hiruma]

A Good episode. But sadly I had worked out what had happened last week, with the 'saved' word prominently used. The virtual environment was interesting.

I LOVED the Helmet scenes, although its something you can only play on a few times before it gets old.

I nearly choked when I saw the preview for the next episode. I immediatly thought 'The Doctor on a Commercial Airliner? What the he...?'
then noticed it was a plane in space story. Still, I can see the Doctor as a bad passenger.. perhaps one of those ones you sit next to on a flight and they dont stop talking.

[Tegan]

[Tegan]

[meglos]

About 38 minutes in to this episode when the Doctor is talking to Donna, he says "Eveline". Does anyone know or guess what that was about?

[KnottyEmily]

I watched from 37-40 minutes and didn't catch it....was it when they were inside the Library, or outside with River's diary?

Also, the music at the end of the episode (when the Doctor connects the screwdriver to the main computer to save River), where has it been used before? I think it was The Parting of the Ways, and possibly The Christmas Invasion too....does the song have a name?

[meglos]

My mistake. I think he actually says "everything". His mumbling threw me out

[KnottyEmily]

I thought that might have been what you where referring to. You're right, he did say everything

[Greg]

[KnottyEmily]

They were part of the group's 'packed lunch', which is still strange considering they're in the 51st century

[Greg]

Yes. Strange to think they still have chickens to get the chicken legs from, which is what I was getting at.

[Sulp Niar]

Um... okay!

This is a lot better, to be honest. A lot better. Having set up all of the ideas he's going to play around with in episode one (and that's chiefly why it was boring, I think; we got loads of questions, and nothing done with them at all), Moffat mucks around with them this time. Memorable images galore - Picasso-face! Endless children! Empty beds!

The whole B story with Donna was really incredible, and it's funny how Moffat managed to make it so powerful despite how quick it was. Interestingly, it isn't the anguish that makes it, but Donna's quiet "I'm alright too" (a brilliant scene, that; now that is how emotional scenes should be done, with utmost subtlety) and the last shot of him unable to call out her name made it work really well. I was a bit worried that she joked about his vocal problem early on - seemed a bit unfair - but it turned out to work really well.

Yet... even though it worked, I can't help wondering if it would've been better to have had this right from Episode One. I mean, Donna could still be with the Doctor in the library (so that the Evangelista scene still happens), but really, I think the story would've worked better as a whole if Donna had been shown in the virtual world right from the start. A very 'Human Nature' like way of doing things, but hey, I think it would have made the whole thing more cohesive.

In fact, the only reason why the scenes worked so well is because the quick jump-cuts were mentioned by the characters themselves. Yet that still could have been done alongside a longer story for her and her family. I dunno, it just could've been stretched out, I think.

Uh, which leads me onto the postmodernism of the story. It's... well, it's difficult. For a start, the girl watching on TV and getting scared on the sofa (if she'd hid behind it, it would have been really annoying), and urging on the characters... well, it was difficult to watch this without feeling that it was a bit smug. I wouldn't have minded so much if it was done once or twice, or if the story was resolutely about stories in the way that 'Love & Monsters' was resolutely about fandom (and considering that this is set in a library, it's even more of a missed opportunity), but it did feel intrusive after a while. Apart from being smug, it also sorta removed you from the action and made you remember you're just a viewer. Doing that, yet still engaging the viewer, is a very delicate skill...

...and personally, I thought it worked. But I could fully understand why others couldn't. In its own way, it reminded me of 'Interference' (oh the irony...!), constantly reminding the audience that they were reading a work of fiction, in a way (mind you, 'Interference' was more resolutely about TV than this was about books!).

Then there's the other thing that could divide opinion; the "Doctor always wins" thread running through this. Suffice to say, in the same way that Gallifrey is the most fascinating place ever when done by awesome writers, and the most boringly annoying place ever when not... this strand of showing the Doctor as a powerful, wonderful person can either work wonderfully or fall flat on its face. So for instance, 'Human Nature' and 'Love & Monsters' do this really well, but a lot of stories that tell us how brilliant he is - including, most recently, 'The Sontaran Stratagem' - just don't really work. It again comes down to the conviction of it, and how much the story itself actually investigates how powerful and wonderful the Doctor is.

Again, for me, it worked here... but, again, it could really irritate people, in the same way that the sex metaphor of 'The Doctor Dances' could irritate some and amuse others. And considering that Moffat seems to be on a roll of doing this, I'm guessing that his series will be even more divisible than RTD's; you're either a huge fan of what he does, or you're not.

Oh, and I agree with Greg. The Vashta Nerada weren't wrapped up as satisfyingly as they could have been and were, um, sorta pointless in the end. I'm wondering if they could have been better used to investigate the whole fiction idea - shadows that are the ink of the texts, that are given meaning by the books they inhabit. There was a smidgeon of that, but only really with the data ghosts, which was a shame.

...anyone else notice that the 'Bad Wolf' theme for Rose was played for River Song a few times? Knotty Emily, I think that the bit you're referring to is the second part of the 'Bad Wolf' theme; if you open up the DVD menu on one of the boxsets, it plays that bit after maybe a minute.

Actually, the music was pretty darn good in this. I really liked the bass-y bits. Dunga-nunga-nunga-nunga... Yeah, that was cool.

So. As an episode, this was marvellous. Best since 'Planet of the Ood'. But as a story all up? Erm, sort of fractured, and half-brilliant, half-disappointing.

[KnottyEmily]

I'm just watching the Confidential for this episode, and I'm kinda getting the feeling that River knew the Doctor in his current form. The reason for this is because about 17 minutes into Silence in the Library, when they start to organise themselves against the Vashta Nerada (and River calls the Doctor 'pretty boy'), River seems to expect the Doctor to recognise her and starts looking through her diary to figure where he is in his timeline. She starts going through adventures, but he doesn't have a clue. If she met him in a future incarnation, she'd know that he hadn't met her yet but she expects him to know her.

I'm sure that could easily be written around if Tennant doesn't stay for another full season, but I like to think it's a hint that he will.

[FredDag]

I wanted to wait till I'd seen both parts of this story before I made a comment. I was expecting another, scary creepy episode about darkness and lots of scare but I didn't get that at all. The creepy scary story was very much in background, which I found really frustrating. As a story it's great, but for what I was expecting I was really let down. The plot was more about River song and the saved people. Though, they were great elements, I was looking for a empty child type story. Oh well, hopefully we'll get a good scary story before the end of the season.

[Tegan]