Doctor Who Club of Australia

[Dougy]

Really enjoyed this, just as much as the last episode. Will was brilliant, and there were some very funny moments. LOVED the Back to the Future referance!

[g,uest]

[g,uest]

[g,uest]

http://drwhoaustralia.org/board/viewtopic.php?p=19410#19410

[kangamac]

Poor.

I thought William Shakspear was well portrayed. I thought the atmosphere in the madhouse was quite effective. I thought the rest of it was a waste of time.

Why is it that whenever there is an historical adventure of late, it is alwaysset in England? Don't the other nations of Earth have a history? Don't nations on alien worlds have a history? And why is it always nevessary to have a famous figure from history involved?

Oh and enough of that housing estate chav already. She's gone - deal with it!

[Greg]

Left ant-mac's comments alone until after Daleks in Manhattan aired as, well, it's something that could be a spoiler if someone worked really hard at avoiding any knowledge of future episodes. (If anyone managed it, well done!)

[kangamac]

"The Girl in the Fireplace and Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks have Earth-historical settings that aren't set in England. You're complaining about something that isn't true!"

I should have used the term "mostly" instead of "always".

And it is true that they are mostly set in or nearby to the UK - this includes "The Girl in the Fireplace".

And while "Daleks in Manhattan" is certainly set in the past, it is not quite what I meant when I refer to historical - it is more a case of recent history. Recent history being an amount of time that can be spanned by a Human lifetime. I should have been clearer on that point.

"Problem is, how would we know if it is a 'historical' on an alien planet?"

A few lines of dialogue. It would be particularly effective if it was set upon a world where the Doctor had previously visited - but at a latter stage in its history.

"Alien planets that have appeared more than once are rae things in Doctor Who, and it appears that the TARDIS can't journey to Gallifrey and presumably Skaro anymore (due to the Time War), so unless a new alien planet is established and visited multiple times, there's no sense of history."

Peladon?

Metebelis Three?

Any other world already visited by the Doctor?

However, there is certainly no harm in employing the idea you have stated: "a new alien planet is established and visited multiple times".

"They could set a story on New Earth before New Earth, but not sure there's much point to that!"

There would be if they could manage to do a decent story.

"It's not really necessary, but it is largely in line with what happened in the past in any case."

Exactly - it was not always the case.

"Historical stories in the old series tended to feature one or more major historical figures, one or more Time Lords, and/or Daleks."

The pure historicals did not - the psuedo-historicals sometimes did. However, they just as often did not.

The Time Warrior, The Talons of Weng-Chiang, The Masque of Mandragora, The Visitation and so forth are examples of psuedo-historicals that did not. There are also more.

"The new series historicals conform to this pattern."

With one part of that pattern - not the entire pattern.

[Greg]

[kangamac]

"I'm sure many people from the UK and France would be at least bemused that you can't see much difference in the two countries!"

And at what stage did I indicate that I was not aware of them being more than one different country? Please show me if you can.

I was in fact referring to the geographical proximity of each to the other.

Rather like setting an episode of an Australian TV series in NZ.

And once again, please show me where I indicated they were not seperate countries.

"I don't see how it would be particularly effective."

Which does not mean that others are not capable of such vision.

"The only possible use is for the Doctor to make comments about keeping history on the right track - and that would wok much better if the viewer already knew the history - in other words, on Earth."

Rather a limited view. Hopefully not all DW fans are so inflicted.

It can work if it is done competently. There is no reason why the viewer cannot remember a previous visit to the same planet - particularly if it is done earlier in the same season.

In fact, this type of story has been done to some degree before - "Genesis of the Daleks". Skaro may now be gone, but there are plenty of other alien worlds out there - despite the fact that we have seen so few in recent years.

"'I've been here before - but 350 years in the future!' is unlikely to add anything to a story that perhaps the time taken to say it couldn't otherwise be better used."

I have already addressed this issue above.

"Will mean nothing to the vast majority of the current viewers."

So re-introduce them in new stories - or alternatively create new ones. The options are endless for someone with a functioning imagination and passable intelligence.

"Returning Sarah and K9 for a story is a return of major icons that a greater percentage of the viewers will have at least heard of, but (much as I love The Curse of Peladon) there's not much about either Peladon or Metebelis Three that recommends either as a selling point."

They were but two examples of a much larger selection.

"The Peladon stories are basically Ice Warrior stories, and despite a brief glimpse of Metebelis Three in The Green Death, the main selling point is the spiders, Returning to either planet would really be a return of an old enemy more than a return to a previously-visited planet."

I am unware of the rather one-dimensional or narrow view many individuals become trapped in - and it is depressing. Why should a visit to Skaro automatically involve the Daleks - or Peladon involve the Ice Warriors?

If the Doctor was to arrive on Earth several million years ago, it is hardly likely that he would encounter Humans. In fact, he would be more likely to encounter a different species of "Earthling" - Silurians or Sea Devils.

(Of course, any species that has ever evolved on this planet - animal, plant, fungi and so forth - is technically an Earthling...)

[Greg]

I sometimes forget how pedantic you are, ant-mac.

You will note that I never said that you said that the UK and France were the same country - and your assertion that geographic closeness some how denies cultural differences is something that we should let various world leaders know. I'm sure the Israelis and the Palestinians will suddenly realise that the stories of their respective peoples are so similar tat any hostilities will immediately cease.

As we're talking historical stories, a story set in New Zealand in 1846 (during the wars the Maoris and the Europeans) would be substantially different to one set in Australia in the same year, where conflicts between Indigenous and European Australians were isolated and unlikely to impinge on most people's day to day activities.

You also spend plenty of time saying how good having an 'non-Earth historical' would be, never explain why you say it would be, and accuse people who don't agree with you (me, that is) of not having 'vision'. Maybe if you could articulate your 'vision' more clearly, people (or even just me) would would agree with you.

[kangamac]

"I sometimes forget how pedantic you are, ant-mac."

You make that sound like a bad thing, Greg.

Do you refer the opposite? (amateurish, careless, inaccurate, incompetent, inept, lax, lazy, negligent, shoddy, slack, slapdash, slipshod and so forth...)

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with any of these methods of existence - for a period of time. However, speaking strictly for myself, I wouldn't want to live my life that way indefinitely.

And that is not to say that I am not also capable of the above forms of behaviour. However, it is possible that I did not get as great an enjoyment from it as some others may possibly have.

"You will note that I never said that you said that the UK and France were the same country - and your assertion that geographic closeness some how denies cultural differences is something that we should let various world leaders know."

I in no way indicated that geographic closeness some how denies cultural differences. If you interpreted it in such a way, then the error is entirely in your perception.

However, that just goes to prove that there is no absolute and infallible method of communication readily available. It is something that can happen to anyone - and probably have happened to most at one stage or another - especially on the internet.

My point of geographical proximity was meant to highlight the lack of distance - spatially - that the TARDIS oftens travels between stories. I admit that the TARDIS has on occasion travelled great distances in the new TV series, but just not often enough to be satisfying.

"I'm sure the Israelis and the Palestinians will suddenly realise that the stories of their respective peoples are so similar tat any hostilities will immediately cease."

Well, as your initial assumption was in error, your follow up argument is largely irrelevant in this current discussion. However, that is not to say they would be without merit elsewhere.

"As we're talking historical stories, a story set in New Zealand in 1846 (during the wars the Maoris and the Europeans) would be substantially different to one set in Australia in the same year, where conflicts between Indigenous and European Australians were isolated and unlikely to impinge on most people's day to day activities."

This paragraph seems to fall in the same category as the previous one. I certainly do not disagree with you on the aspect of differing cultures - which is why I made no comment on that subject.

However, before I move on, I did find one of your comments curious:

"where conflicts between Indigenous and European Australians were isolated and unlikely to impinge on most people's day to day activities"

Was that from the European or the Indigenous perspective?

It would seem to me that the conflicts - isolated or otherwise - had a pretty major effect upon the Indigenous culture - from the perspective of the individual, the family, the community and the entire population. In fact, there are issues relating to these times that are yet to be entirely settled.

Or am I merely being pedantic again?

"You also spend plenty of time saying how good having an 'non-Earth historical' would be, never explain why you say it would be, and accuse people who don't agree with you (me, that is) of not having 'vision'."

It would be good because it would be entertaining to see an alien culture given greater detail and depth. This could change your average DW "monster" into a "species".

This could be done quite effectively in the new TV series, as RTD seems to enjoy including story arcs and incorporating connecting themes throughout the various seasons of the TV show.

It could also be educational if the process was done in such a way as to teach us more about our own world - particularly if the alien world was shown in sharp relief against it. And when I use the word "educational", I do not simply refer to facts and figures. I also refer to moral dilemmas and other modern problems that this world currently faces.

Basically, this is an opportunity to get people thinking - on whatever level that might be - surely that is not a bad thing...?

As for whether you personally lack vision or not, that is up to your own conscience to decide. Oh and not displaying vision does not mean that a person does not possess it - simply that they are not utilizing it. This can be a shame if they sell themselves short.

"Maybe if you could articulate your 'vision' more clearly, people (or even just me) would would agree with you."

I have articulated it to a small degree. I will be happy to offer more detail about it if you wish. This could be done by specifically adressing certain curent issues and then translating them to an alien environment and offering a resolution to them - such as has already been done on DW in the past.

This need not be done via an historical story, but seeing the same planet at a latter stage in its development - or even an earlier one - would allow the fleshing out of the alein world and its population. It could serve - overall - to give the viewer a greater empathy to the situation and the people involved.

And as previously stated, it could also give the production team the chance to transform one-dimensional "monsters" into three-dimensional "species". It can give as the opportunity to study and speculate about the nuance and subtleties of an alien culture. How it is similar to our own - and how it differs. As we learn more about it - so we can learn more about our own.

This has been done to great effect on other TV shows and DW is in a very good position to take advantage of similar opportunities. In fact, as previously mentioned, this type of story has been done to some degree before - "Genesis of the Daleks". That is a story that can stand up to the best that DW has ever done...

Yes, I know, I'm just being pedantic...

I would just love to see DW take greater advantage of its potential and really do something that makes it stand out above the rest - or at least be able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the better examples of science fiction. It may never ascend to the heights of "2001: A Space Odyssey", but that doesn't mean it has to dwell amongst the likes of "Buffy" either...

[Theta Sigma]

[ADAMK]

[Theta Sigma]

[Theta Sigma]

The Shakespeare Code commentary on the DVD release has David Tennant and the lovely Christina Cole (Lilith). It was mentioned that Ms Cole had played another witch prior to The Shakespeare Code. The name of the show was not mentioned so just in case people did not know the show being alluded to it was Hex.

The episode included the Doctor explaining to Martha how the world could come to an end in 1599. The Doctor brought up the allusion of Back to the Future in which Martha says the film. The Doctor then sarcastically says no the novelisation. The Doctor is saying that there is hardly any difference between the novelisation and the source material it is based on.

This dialogue would seem sort of prophetic for Freema Agyeman since she recently joined the cast of the Survivors remake. The new version of Survivors is based on the novelisation of the original show rather than on the original show itself. The novelisation has significant differences from the original show unlike the novelisation of Back to the Future.

To talk about Survivors go to the following thread:
http://drwhoaustralia.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=1835

[montypython]

I'm watching the Fourth Doctor serial City of Death at the moment, and the Doctor just mentioned that he once met a young boy who wouldn't speak to anyone. The Doctor told him, "There's no point in talking if you have nothing to say". That boy went on to become Shakespeare.
Upon reading the first draft of Hamlet, the Doctor said he recognised the handwriting as his own, saying that Shakespeare had ruined his wrist writing the sonnet. The Doctor was also disappointed to find that the line "to take arms against a sea of troubles" was included, as he told Shakespeare that it was a mixed metaphor.

I love these little continuity errors