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Doctor Who Club of Australia
45
Celebrating the 45th anniversary of Doctor Who
Sunday Nov 23rd at Drummoyne RSL Victoria Rd Drummoyne
11 am to 6 pm
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| Ghost Light |
| Excellent |
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46% |
[ 7 ] |
| Very Good |
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13% |
[ 2 ] |
| Good |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| Fair |
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20% |
[ 3 ] |
| Turkey |
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0% |
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| Total Votes : 15 |
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SharazJek
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 902
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey Wester!!! You stole my last word!! |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad someone's following all this.  Unfortunately, we seem to have pretty much run down; not that there's not more to discuss, but rather we've run out of 'meaningful' posts and come to the point of just trying to have the last word (not that this, is in any way an attempt to do just that  ).
But how about that Ghost Light, hey? Pretty atmospheric, if slightly confusing, kind of story; but highly enjoyable nonetheless. I find it a pity the stories from Sylv's last season weren't shown in the order originally intended, though, because they might have made more sense. I also agree Ghost Light could have done with another episode so the whole story could be developed in a more easily comprehensible manner.
Last edited by dave on Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Greg
Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Canberra
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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It's the old joke, isn't it?
To understand Ghost Light, just watch episode 4. |
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SharazJek
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 902
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| dave wrote: | Well, I mentioned that person's point of view briefly, here is what they said pretty much entirely:
| Quote: | | I think it's a great shame that religions tend to cause people to believe they have aquired exclusive rights to 'the truth'. However, there is, I believe, a reason for this. Part of the appeal of religions are that they allow you to live your life in service. You do not have to take real responsibility for your actions if you make decisions based on the teachings of a faith. While this provides a great peace of mind and a life free of doubt and regret it only really works if you believe that the way of life you have chosen is the best one and will provide you with the best future possible. The problem is that you are making decisions based on your interpretations of the teachings, which may differ greatly from others within the same faith, hence the need for so many different denominations of all the major religions - and the temptation to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what the teachings really mean. |
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But this is the same for those who believe in evolution or believe in dis-belief itself. That is the 'truth' they espouse.
Nothing in religion appeals to me, but what I do like about the Bible is that (particularly in the NT), there are very few hard and fast rules or 'laws'. There are 'principles' that you can use as a guide.
For instance, 1 Cor 6:12 is a good one: "All things are lawful for me; but not all things are advantageous. All things are lawful for me; but I will not let myself be brought under authority by anything."
So in other words, as one example, there's nothing in the Bible that says I can't smoke like a chimmney, but if it's going to cause upset to those close to me, the principled thing to do would be not to smoke around them.
The motivating force behind obeying 'laws' is FEAR of the consequences of breaking that law.
The motivating force behind following 'principles' is LOVE.
And that's what I like about the Bible.
While religions may allow you to live in service, the question I would ask is are you doing that service out of fear of eternal torment, as many christian religions promote? And even if I were 'in service' for a positive prospect of heaven or something else, how logical is it that a God of love would allow people to be tortured for all eternity? I'm not surprised that there are so many opponents of that God. 'Cause he doesn't sound like a very nice feller to me!
Because eternal torment in hellfire is just as ludicrous a notion as evolution. Neither of these ideas really allow you to excercise your free will properly. |
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charlie
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1382
Location: Currarong (never heard of it?! Its near Nowra. What?! Nowra's below The Gong!)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| SharazJek wrote: | how logical is it that a God of love would allow people to be tortured for all eternity? I'm not surprised that there are so many opponents of that God. 'Cause he doesn't sound like a very nice feller to me!
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It's actually this question that has stopped me from becoming a christian. While my scripture teachure explains this away by saying that He has to have a consiquence of not believing Him because as soon as you got there you would instantly choose whichever is the right religion. But this answer leads to another question, why does he only let in people that believe all that He says and only what He says? It's almost as if He, is lying.
And this is why I am not a christian or a jew or anything like that.
I didnt mean to offend anyone in what I said and I deeply apologise if I have. |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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SJ, I really don't see that evolution stops one from exercising their free will properly. Would you mind explaining your point of view a bit?
And Charlie, seriously, after the potentially offensive remarks I've made whilst debating these ideas with SJ (both here and in the threads in the Holiday for the Doctor forum), I'd be surprised if your comments could be construed as being any worse!
As for the hell vs the grave argument - this is another one which comes down to the particular words used both in the Hebrew Old Testament and the predominantly Greek New Testament. Seeing as SJ and I still can't agree on the interpretation of a word such as 'day', I doubt there's much point trying to come to an agreement here. So I've largely left this one alone until now.
However, I too have serious problems with the concept of hell myself. It seems too obviously an invention of men to frighten other men with, to me. The very concept seems, to me, totally abominable. |
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charlie
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1382
Location: Currarong (never heard of it?! Its near Nowra. What?! Nowra's below The Gong!)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| dave wrote: | And Charlie, seriously, after the potentially offensive remarks I've made whilst debating these ideas with SJ (both here and in the threads in the Holiday for the Doctor forum), I'd be surprised if your comments could be construed as being any worse!
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I just dont want to risk it, I really eenjoy this site and I dont want to get on anyones bad side. Also you've said that God doesnt exist and presented logical arguments against him and things while I directly accused him of being a liar. That would mean that God sins on a regular basis condemming Himself to His own hell. And making Him a hippocrite by sending all other sinners to hell. How offensive is that? |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| charlie wrote: | | I just dont want to risk it, I really eenjoy this site and I dont want to get on anyones bad side. Also you've said that God doesnt exist and presented logical arguments against him and things while I directly accused him of being a liar. That would mean that God sins on a regular basis condemming Himself to His own hell. And making Him a hippocrite by sending all other sinners to hell. How offensive is that? |
Fair enough, Charlie. You can't be too polite, I guess. Would you mind expanding on the 'God's a liar' thing a bit though? I'm not sure I completely follow. And if you'd be uncomfortable posting it here, maybe you could send it to me in a private message? I'm curious. |
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Greg
Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Canberra
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| charlie wrote: | | I didnt mean to offend anyone in what I said and I deeply apologise if I have. |
Hey, you'll have to be pretty offensive, given some of the things I've said at this forum, to get too far into anyone's bad books.
Not that I'm asking you to try, mind! |
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charlie
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1382
Location: Currarong (never heard of it?! Its near Nowra. What?! Nowra's below The Gong!)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Well I was talking to my little five year old buddy and I told him something and he asked why and I didnt feel like explaining it so I told him "because I know everything" and he thought that that was a reasonable explanation and if he never met another human in his life then he believe that I know everything for the rest of his life and I relised that this is exactly what God has done.
He tells us in the Bible the He is THE ONE true God and He is all powerful and He knows everything and if we listen to other gods then we are heathons and if we never encountered another god then we would always believe that, so obviously if there are other gods then He is trying to keep us from hearing what they are saying and if He is then He is at least lying about being the one true god and if He's lying about that then who knows what else he is lying about.
Now all of what I have said in this post relies on the theory that their are other gods and what leads me to that conclusion is that, He will only accept into heaven those that believe whatever He says no matter what (And Im sure SJ will have something to say to that) so this would suggest to me that He is lying somewhere in there and the only way for us to find the truth out would be to speak to other, perhaps more scrupulous, gods. And I think He has been hiding that from us.
And thats how 'Charlie's theory on God' started. |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the explanation, Charlie. I like the fact you're willing to question what others have presented to you as the truth. Of course, I think the argument from a 'christian' point of view is that any other 'gods' are Satan masquerading as god. Hence YWHW's insistence that his people give ear to no other 'gods' - because they're not really 'gods' at all. |
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charlie
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 1382
Location: Currarong (never heard of it?! Its near Nowra. What?! Nowra's below The Gong!)
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dave wrote: | | Hence YWHW's insistence that his people give ear to no other 'gods' - because they're not really 'gods' at all. |
Yeah, but He's lying |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm really looking forward to what SJ will think of this particular turn in conversation... |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| charlie wrote: | | Also you've said that God doesnt exist and presented logical arguments against him |
This came back to me for some reason, Charlie, and I'm wondering if you could point out to me where I've said God doesn't exist?
Y'see, I'm of the opinion that the question of God's existence is technically unanswerable. No test can be devised to detect God's presence or absence. Any assumption either way - that It does or doesn't exist - has to be made from a stance of faith; based on an assumption. I do my best to avoid assumptions, although it's difficult.
I've done my best to present logical arguments which call into question the accuracy of the Biblical record of certain things (particularly creation); to question the way belief itself affects the way a person might think and might be able to think; and to reinforce the idea that, despite personal feelings of certainty, all one can ever honestly have is opinions. I'm not sure I've made any statements in absolute terms as to the existence, or lack thereof, of God. If I have, I sincerely apologise. |
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Greg
Site Admin
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 1816
Location: Canberra
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| dave wrote: | | Y'see, I'm of the opinion that the question of God's existence is technically unanswerable. No test can be devised to detect God's presence or absence. Any assumption either way - that It does or doesn't exist - has to be made from a stance of faith; based on an assumption. I do my best to avoid assumptions, although it's difficult. |
Couldn't we, like, build a God detector and switch it on? That'd prove things one way or another.
Then we'll build an evolution detector and see we get a ping out of it.
Simple, really. The parts are probably available on the Acme Enterprises web-site. |
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SharazJek
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 902
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| charlie wrote: | | SharazJek wrote: | how logical is it that a God of love would allow people to be tortured for all eternity? I'm not surprised that there are so many opponents of that God. 'Cause he doesn't sound like a very nice feller to me!
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It's actually this question that has stopped me from becoming a christian. While my scripture teachure explains this away by saying that He has to have a consiquence of not believing Him because as soon as you got there you would instantly choose whichever is the right religion. But this answer leads to another question, why does he only let in people that believe all that He says and only what He says? It's almost as if He, is lying.
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You can't offend by thinking things like these. It's the conflicting and contradicting false ideas like a God of love who can torture people that Christendom puts across which are offensive. It's a total misrepresentation of the Bible, and indeed, of God.
Last edited by SharazJek on Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SharazJek
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 902
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| dave wrote: | SJ, I really don't see that evolution stops one from exercising their free will properly. Would you mind explaining your point of view a bit?
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Hmmmm, what am I trying to say? Let me replace some of your previous quote with my own thoughts on the subject:
Part of the appeal of *EVOLUTION are that they allow you to live your life in service. You do not have to take real responsibility for your actions if you make decisions based on the teachings of a *EVOLUTION.
*I replaced the words 'religions' and 'faith' with evolution, and to me it's the same thing. With evolution, you're still serving someone, even if it is only yourself.
(As a really interesting bit of trivia, and Greg may be the only one in this discussion who knows what I'm talking about, I happened to have a listen to Primeval, which has some very interesting themes on God, religion, and why you hold the beliefs you believe. Kwundar I think is the name of the 'omniscient' being trying to take control of the source of Traken.)
So I honestly see evolution as a type of faith (considering it can't be proven, and yes, I and many scientists see faults in carbon dating), and indeed for some, quite possibly a religion, or at the very least a form of worship.
| Quote: | | Seeing as SJ and I still can't agree on the interpretation of a word such as 'day' |
Not true! We both agree that the Hebrew word translated day in Genesis 1 & 2 has been translated in other ways throughout the OT.
| Quote: | | However, I too have serious problems with the concept of hell myself. It seems too obviously an invention of men to frighten other men with, to me. The very concept seems, to me, totally abominable. |
Hang on Dave.......what's going on here???? Here is another thing we both agree on. And you hit the nail on the head when you said that the idea of a fiery hell is a concept. You're right, it is only a concept of man, it's not a reality spoken of in the Bible.
PS. Bear with me on the 'other gods' and 'God must must be lying' comments. I do have a bit to say on that but I'm going home to bed now so will catch up with you later on this. |
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SharazJek
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 902
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| charlie wrote: | | Well I was talking to my little five year old buddy and I told him something and he asked why and I didnt feel like explaining it so I told him "because I know everything" and he thought that that was a reasonable explanation |
Hey can I swap your 5 yo for my kids? I tell them all the time that 'I know eveything' and they don't believe me!! But hears the thing, just because they dont want to believe me in something eg. playing on the train tracks could be bad for your health, because either they've never seen a train or because they've never seen anyone killed by a train, does that make them right?
| charlie wrote: | | He tells us in the Bible the He is THE ONE true God and He is all powerful and He knows everything and if we listen to other gods then we are heathons and if we never encountered another god then we would always believe that, so obviously if there are other gods then He is trying to keep us from hearing what they are saying and if He is then He is at least lying about being the one true god and if He's lying about that then who knows what else he is lying about. |
The word heathen is a word you hear more from the pulpit than anywhere else. It promotes thoughts of us and them, and man if your're a heathen, you must be BAD news.
Tell me, is the God you have heard about from the Bible someone you have read about in the Bible itself, or someone you've heard about from your scripture teacher or priest. Because they're more than likely two very different individuals.
If you look at the context of the Bible, the Old Testament speaks of Israel, God's chosen nation at the time, and of the way he treated them, and the way they treated him in return. At the time, the world was full of gods. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Caanan etc etc. was full of 'em, and some of the worst religions included sacrificing children to fire. One of the worst 'sins' Israel could commit was idolatry, or worshipping these other gods. It's commandment number 1 in the 10 commandments. (See Exodus 20:1-4)
Jehovah (the God of Israel) took great offence to Israel continuing to worship these other gods because they were man made. Jehovah often made comments like 'how can you worship something made when I made everything?'.
To illustrate: If I gave my daughter a teddy bear and she started calling it daddy, giving it kisses and cuddles, while ignoring me and treating me as if I didn't exist, I'd be pretty hurt.
So more than being offended, God was actually hurt by Israel's continued rebellion. But everytime he withdrew his protection from them and the surrounding nations would begin to invade and start wiping them out, the Israelites would get all sad and sorry and come back to Jehovah, begging forgivness and asking for his protection again.
It amazes me how many times the Israelites kept basically giving God the finger and more so how many chances he kept giving them before their destruction by Babylon. (And even then the destruction was only temporary)
So the 'other gods' refered to in the Bible are the false gods that the nations surrounding Israel worshipped. They're not real. ie. They're false.
| charlie wrote: | | Now all of what I have said in this post relies on the theory that their are other gods |
Well, as I explained, there are other gods, but unlike the God of the Bible, Jehovah, they're not real.
| dave wrote: | | I think the argument from a 'christian' point of view is that any other 'gods' are Satan masquerading as god. Hence YWHW's insistence that his people give ear to no other 'gods' - because they're not really 'gods' at all. |
Well keep in mind that the 'biblical' point of view is that the false gods spoken of in the OT are made of wood and stone, and therefore pointless to worship, and as Israel was in a covenent with Jehovah, it was an offence to worship an image made of earthly materials.
An interesting fact about Jehovah from the OT, is his abhorence of God-depicting images of any sort. There was never an image of Jehovah in the OT. However, so-called Christians today worship statues of Jesus dying, a baby Jesus, Mary, various saints, the cross etc etc. (And no images of Jehovah, God himself, although many if not most Christians believe Jesus IS God, which is also incorrect.) I can't imagine the God of the Old Testament being overly chuffed about that. There is also no mention whatsoever of images to be used in worship in the New Testament either. |
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Beatly
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 375
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| SharazJek wrote: | | An interesting fact about Jehovah from the OT, is his abhorence of God-depicting images of any sort. There was never an image of Jehovah in the OT. However, so-called Christians today worship statues of Jesus dying, a baby Jesus, Mary, various saints, the cross etc etc. (And no images of Jehovah, God himself, although many if not most Christians believe Jesus IS God, which is also incorrect.) I can't imagine the God of the Old Testament being overly chuffed about that. There is also no mention whatsoever of images to be used in worship in the New Testament either. |
That's always been an oddity in my eyes. No idolatry, it says pretty explicitly, several times over. Don't worship lumps of clay! No statues, no sir. And then they go and decorate their churches with statues. And essentially worship them. And some also claim that the real essence of God is in bits of bread and cups of wine. That strikes me as another form of idolatry.
Islam, so the traditions go, came about because the previous divine revelation wasn't being followed the way it was supposed to be, so we the humans had to be told yet again. That's why the Qur'an spends quite a bit of time and energy defaming the "People of the Book" (the Jews and Christians) - they strayed from the prescribed path. |
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dave
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| SharazJek wrote: | | So I honestly see evolution as a type of faith (considering it can't be proven, and yes, I and many scientists see faults in carbon dating), and indeed for some, quite possibly a religion, or at the very least a form of worship. |
SJ, did you miss my many posts explaining that science doesn't claim to prove anything? You're right, evolution can't be proven, any more than, say, the theory of gravity. Or the existence of God/gods.
I'm curious as to the methodology behind this finding faults with carbon dating. What about potassium/argon dating? Are all the dating methods used by science flawed? |
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