Doctor Who Club of Australia

[Sulp Niar]

First of all, the Doctor always goes on about humanity being his favourite species. Bull. The BRITS are his favourite species. He always saves Britain from danger, but rarely anywhere else. Also notice that whenever he lands somewhere else, the Doctor is all, "You can't interfere, you can't change the past." Whenever he lands in England from the 1960's onwards though (in other words, HIS era) he really doesn't care about changing history (even though it is history to him) and seems to want to sculpt Britain to his own tastes. He doesn't seem very appalled about Torchwood strengthening the British Empire, or that appalled over the British Empire in Jubilee, but Nazis having won the war? Now THAT's sickening! As if that wasn't suspicious enough, he is much less accepting of UNIT and constantly goes against them, only loving the Brigadier who is very much the stiff upper lip type.

He also has a distinct love of tea. Tea! Of all the British things! In the TV Movie, when Grace says, "He's British" and the Doctor says, "Yes I suppose I am", what he really means is "the British are MINE".

What's more disturbing though is his taste in women. All of them are blonde! Grace, Sam, Charley, Rose... just what is happening? Why does the Doctor love blonde girls so much? He basically rejects Cameca in The Aztecs, but goes head over heels for Reinette in The Girl in the Fireplace. He lets Rose continually dye her hair with peroxide, obviously preferring blonde. The only exception really is Lynda with a Y, but then again he let Rose escape in the TARDIS, but he didn't put Lynda in the most safe position did he?

So I'll pose this question to you - is the Doctor fascist?!

[Greg]

You don't seem to know what a fascist is.

Fascism, a term introduced into the modern vernacular by Benito Mussolini, derives from fascium, which was a symbol of judicial authority in Rome - a fascium is an axe around which tied sticks or rods. And that tells you all you really need to know about fascism: a strong central power which holds its people close, protecting both itself and them by doing so. Fascists are notorious for rejecting those who aren't part of their people, often suppressing them economically or physically.

In your first paragraph, you seem to be claiming the Doctor is a British nationalist. Nationalism is one of the characteristics of a fascist, but you can be a nationalist without being a fascist. The Doctor has claimed to be 'A citizen of the universe, and a gentleman to boot'. He has otherwise distanced himself from things British and in fact Earth altogether - 'I'm a Time Lord; I walk in eternity'.

You common on the Doctor's dislike of the Nazis (or indeed Hitler, 'that bounder'). In most people's mind, Nazi and fascist are pretty much the same thing.

Drinking tea is not a specific characteristic of fascists.

And again you seem to be straying into the realms of Nazism in your claim that the Doctor is only interested in blondes. Nazis were unhealthily fascinated with Aryan-types and I seriously doubt that bottle-blondes would have qualified. The only exception, you claim, is Lynda. Sarah Jane Smith, anyone?

So, by a real definition and the points you made, I don't believe that the Doctor can be claimed to be a fascist.

[Sulp Niar]

Fair enough, you got me there. I really started this as a joke thread anyway - alright, I'll say nationalist. Theoretically though, even though I was using the word "fascist" a bit extremely, you have to remember that the Doctor is a central power that holds his people close (the Brits, really). Okay, he doesn't exactly reject non-Brits... although he dislikes many of Peri's Americanisms (though he still liked her underneath that, I'll warrant that) and practically hated the Australian Tegan. He favours the British and the British language... the TARDIS translates into English, and in ...ish he goes on about "English bringing people together in the pursuit of knowledge" but criticises "Noah Webber, that pestilent scribbler". You may say that English is indeed the way of the future and the way for unity across the lands, but in the fictional world of Doctor Who, perhaps we could assume that the Doctor sculpted Britain himself? Torchwood is an anagram of Doctor Who, after all... although his name isn't actually Doctor Who. Heh. I didn't say that drinking tea was a factor of fascism... haha. I said that it's a factor of his intense pride in Britain.

I don't think we even have to contest that the Doctor is racist - after all, in The Ark in Space he sides with humanity against the Wirrn just because he prefers them, and always sides with humans before knowing what's going on. Alright, it's a big leap to me saying he's fascist and I was basically using that word just to make a splash, but we could very well see the day where he develops into a fascist.

However, I'm going to rebuke your mention of Sarah Jane - even though the new series mantains that she wanted him, I seriously don't think he wanted her. Especially in his alien 4th incarnation. However, I forgot to mention that the 4th appeared to have a thing for Romana II - who was originally brunette but deliberately regenerated into Princess Astra. Dearie me. I was indeed drawing comparisons with the Aryan views of the Nazis, and yes I know this is racism more than fascism, but the former is obviously integrated into the latter (you even say so yourself).

And yes, I'm aware that I said this was a bit of a joke thread - I only wanted to bring it up in a kind of "hmm, that's interesting" not a "THE DOCTOR IS ACTUALLY A FASCIST!!!" way.

[Greg]

[charlie]

[montypython]

I get where you're coming from, but I don't think it would be fair to completely generalise it and say "He always picks blondes, he always saves the Brits", etc. For one thing, yes he doesn't mind Rose dying her hair, but I doubt he'd mind if she stopped. My second point, it isn't his fault he's always ending up in England! He wanted to take Rose to see Elvis! Hmm, maybe the TARDIS is the fascist one...

[Sulp Niar]

[Greg]

The main problem I have with the word 'fascist' is the inevitable connection it has with Nazis, and hence with the Holocaust. There's very little to find humorous with the estimated 5-6 million Jews, almost 2 million Christian Poles, and tens and hundreds of thousnads gypsies, people with disabilities, communists, homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses cruelly killed at teh direction of the Nazis.

Using a word like fascist lightly or humorously risks diminishing the sheer evil the word should invoke. And as the evil is diminished, the opportunity for people to find the word and its associations attractive increases. I'd rather be harsh about a word being misused (particularly by lazy journalists who'll try to get an emotive response instead of telling people what's really going on) than see any rehabilitation of a word associated with such unutterably vile acts.

One of my least favourite quotes from Doctor Who is when the 3rd Doctor referred to Hitler as a 'bounder'. That's so far short of the mark that it simply isn't funny.

Sorry to be a bit heavy, but that's what I think about this topic.

[charlie]

[Sulp Niar]

[SharazJek]

[Panecea]

It is ironic that these points are being brought up because Doctor Who has nearly always had a social comment to make(more so in the early days though). Always reflecting human faults and other hypocrasies with in human society. As for the Doctor's affection for the Earth, I believe it is a technical device that helps audiences relate to the issues being discussed (because there is no other reason, as far as the storyline goes, why he keeps comming back). Then again, the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Master and a host of other villains have all made the same remark: "You've spent to long here (Earth) Doctor, you've beome like them."

[Sulp Niar]

[Panecea]

This could possibly be explained by saying that even though organisations such as the BBC may have the resources to create a thrilling and diverse itinerary of alien destinations, just not the motivation. However, you must remember that this is a children's program. In order to gain an understanding of a concept children need a certain degree of familiarity with at least part of the subject, maybe that was the producer's intension.

[Sulp Niar]

Yes, you're absolutely right. RTD has deliberately set down mandates about that, no episode without humans in some form. But as I said, I'm only looking at it from the angle of the world of Doctor Who, not the background and production world... which seem to collide in startling proportions in peoples' views about episodes... so that Trial of a Time Lord is "the hiatus, JNT and Saward taking its toll on the program" instead of "this story isn't very good". I'm trying to separate the "history" of Doctor Who here from the "production and making of" Doctor Who.

[Greg]

[Sulp Niar]

I think I prefer the Zagreus one actually... seems more on par with the nastiness and hypocrisy of the Time Lords.

Actually Panacea, now that I think about it, I'm afraid I have to disagree with what you said, but not because of the fascism thing at all. I think that logically the human element actually appeals to the ADULT side of the audience, giving them a more "conservative" window in whilst the kids experience the oddness. For example, the Menoptera fascinate kids but make adults laugh in derision (except me), and generally adults are the one who need the human contact. Susan was originally conceived as a character for the youngsters to identify with, but ironically it was the Doctor that they ended up identifying with. Preconceptions on what kids accept and identify with are sadly quite wrong. Take in point Sesame Street - ask a kid the names of the humans in it and they'll say something like, "Humans? What humans?" The aliens are more capable of capturing the attention of youngsters because of their more accepting and imaginative nature.

Similarly I can see that kids will accept nice aliens at the tip of a hat too. I can't see a kid being scared over the Menoptera. The tone of the alien's voice and the way it is constructed, as well as how the Doctor (note: not the humans!) treats them, will automatically tell a kid what's a good alien and what's a bad alien. So with that in mind, why need humans so often in Doctor Who at all? Supposedly that's the function of the companion, so why not be able to juxtapose the companion with the alienality (there's that neologism again) of the other species in the stories?

Now that I've discussed the production... well, I spose it's back to the fictional world of Who.

[Greg]

The book with the morphic field thing in it was Lucifer Rising.

[Panecea]

Yes, It is a bit difficult to discern a definitive history of the Doctor when his history is so very fluid and on occasion even the Time Lords have risked creating a paradox. Therefore, both the Doctor and his history are bound to be contradictory. Basically, the very nature of his "job" has caused this "hypocrisy". All you have to do is take a good look at what he has seen and done.

As for my previous comments (more specifcally, the comment about the children), Sulp Niar, they were in relation to the radio program more than the television series and I believe the mandates you refer to don't extend that far back in time. At the time it was probably some sort of rule of thumb for children's programs.

Although, You are correct about the human interaction being targeted at the adult, I believe the children react and relate more to the "environment" created by the human characters than anything else. In other words they only pick up on the "black and white" events occuring in front of them. Actually when you think about it this layering technique used on the dialogue is only a recent occurrance; done for the earlier WHO generation who were getting older. (Of course I am referring to the period starting in the mid 70s to now.)

[Sulp Niar]

Yeah, I really like the contradictions in Time Lord history (especially if you take Romana II and the comics into account), which makes them all the more interesting and mysterious. Which, frankly, isn't hard to achieve. The main reason I'm glad there is such hyprocisy in the Time Lords is because it makes them interesting. Other than that they're usually a bunch of dull men saying dull things in dull sets (even in the comics sometimes! Take The Final Chapter). Similarly, though, I'm sick of the extreme end of the coin where we see evil Time Lords... after the Master, the Rani, Omega (debatable) and Lucifer (I believe that's his name, must check). Really however I think it's the CIA who are the hypocritical and nasty ones, aren't they? Everyone else is generally utterly boring. That's the main reason I enjoy Faction Paradox too... because they're not dull Time Lords and they're not over the top evil either (well, not when Miles is in control). They stand for everything that the Time Lords don't believe in, which is praiseworthy for me.

Surely though the Doctor wouldn't have liked to be manipulated? I think one of the main points is that the Doctor likes to take his own path... even if that path isn't always what even WE would associate to be the right path (to claim victory, for example, he sometimes resorts to nasty measures - see the Seventh Doctor). Back in the day of the First Doctor, too, he much preferred doing things his way and cared little about minor races - just like the Time Lords originally too, I guess!. So there's some kind of weird parallels going on between the Doctor and his people sometimes.

I'd argue that the 60s had less "black and white" than people thought... take the Sensorites, even kids know which Sensorites are bad and which are good - even after they all seem sinister at the start.