Which story devides fans the most?

[Sulp Niar]

talkin' 'bout my generation

[silver_smurfer]

I don't honestly think it's really worth taking into account the ratings and audience appreciation figures of the time anymore. This is probably just because I'm a new fan, but I kind of see the public-of-the-time's opinion on the show being irrelevant from today's perspective. It's fascinating background and the in-house problems explains some of the issues that the mid-80s stories had, but old Doctor Who arguably is no longer a mainstream show, it's a show that appeals to old fans and newer fans who want to see the history of it. It's no longer on TV and is more a specialised cult relic.

Actually I haven't read Doctor Who Magazine 413 where there is supposed to be the results of a fan poll rating the 200 odd stories up to the present (which assumes that all of us accept that the original and the new series are the same thing - which I reject) but there was a poll in 1998 and the results were very interesting.

You can see a list here: http://home.earthlink.net/~qstnmark/iw_news/great_tv.htm.

Now if only what fans think matters, and those fans existing in the 'present', then this poll reveals quite a bit (at least it did in 1998). In terms of analying the results can we assume that those in the first half are more likely to be well recieved and those tending towards the bottom half are not. Therefore those in the middle might be considered to either spark ambivilence OR be divisive (?). Only four stories from the McCoy era are listed in the top 80 (Remembrance at 6, Fenric at 12, Ghost Light at 37 and Survivial at 54. By an astounding conincedence they were the first four to be released on DVD (!).

Hovering in the middle are Greatest Show (84) and Battlefield (97), which again I think reflects the natural deviation in quality among the stories of this era. I could see these as possibly devisive as Greatest Show has its appeals (its well produced on location and its has its hunourous and scary moments) and Battlefield is part of the better received final McCoy season and had promise (although it would have been better served as a 3 parter as originally concieved).

What about the rest? They are distributed around the various strata of the bottom end. Silver Nemesis and Happiness Patrol are 115 and 116, Dragonfire is 126, Paradise Towers is 152 and Time and the Rani is last of this era at 156. There's an error here as Delta is not listed at all.

It would be interesting to see how if at all, fan reaction to McCoy's stories have changed in the last 10 years. The cult of McCoy was dying but still lumbering on in 1998. However hopes of a revivial were no longer tied to the 7th Doctor after the TV movie and the spotlight had shifted to McGann. If such a poll had been conducted in 1993, I would say that possibly Greatest Show, Battlefied, Nemesis, Dragonfire would probably have all featured in the top 80. By 1998 I think fan reaction had started to properly reflect that of the general public and the actual quality of the stories.

Can anyone fill me in on how McCoy's stories were rated in the 2009 poll published it appears in DWM 413. I'm too stingey to go out and get my own copy and I won't pay for anything associated with the new series on principle.

[silver_smurfer]

talkin' 'bout my generation

Indeed. There was a nice little "sketch/interview" between Shane and Josh on the New Year Special, satirising generalisation. We all do it. We HAVE to do it. In a professional capacity if I say to you that my home city was run by a 'Methodist' conclave in the interwar period - its essentially true. Not everyone in the city was a methodist, or even on the local council in those years BUT generally the atmosphere was very 'espaliering' and its essentially true. When someone comes up to me and mentions that Baby Boomers are very smug, arrogant, self-aggrandising and selfish - equally its essentially true (MOST of the time). I'm afraid if we were to approach the world on an one by one basis we wouldn't get anywhere!

People often say of my generation that we're cyncial. Well they would say that wouldn't they.

[Greg]

Can anyone fill me in on how McCoy's stories were rated in the 2009 poll published it appears in DWM 413. I'm too stingey to go out and get my own copy and I won't pay for anything associated with the new series on principle.

I assume you are leaving the country to legally stop paying Australian taxes, which after all are what funds the purchases of the current series of Doctor Who shown on the ABC. I suspect the truth of what you say actually lies in the too stingy part!

However, as per your request, and to further the discussion... The 200 stories were rated by DWM readers and the compiled outcomes were:

Time and the Rani - 198/200 - score 42.47% (down from 46.86%)
Paradise Towers - 193/200 - score 47.96% (down from 49.55%)
Delta and the Bannermen - 180/200 - score 54.46% (up from 50.78%)
Dragonfire - 186/200 - score 52.86% (down from 58.49%)
Remembrance of the Daleks - 14/200 - score 84.24% (down from 84.86%)
The Happiness Patrol - 170/200 - score 56.66% (down from 60.88%)
Silver Nemesis - 176/200 - score 54.92% (down from 60.83%)
The Greatest Show in the Galaxy - 119/200 - score 67.73% (up from 67.28%)
Battlefield - 146/200 - score 62.80% (down from 65.24%)
Ghost Light - 76/200 - score 72.78% (down from 75.27%)
The Curse of Fenric - 30/200 - score 82.09% (down from 82.75%)
Survival - 80/200 - score 72.47% (up from 72.24%)

The score is more useful than the position, given that the number of stories has increased the number of slots there are in the table. There are more declines in score than increases (though in 4 cases, it is only part of 1%), with only Delta and the Bannermen showing a substantial improvement in its rating. However, the top 4 McCoy stories are the same, and their position relative to each other is also constant.

Of course, it is worth remembering that the findings are primarily from Doctor Who Magazine readers, and that means only a percentage of Doctor Who fans (let alone the wider viewing audience), and that since the new series commenced the make-up of that readership will have changed markedly since last time the ratings were made. It may even be the stories that haven't changed in their ratings by much are more interesting to look at than those that have, because for those stories their appeal (or lack thereof) appears to be more consistent.

There tends to be a tradition among long-term Doctor Who fans to dislike the stories that are now being shown (whenever 'now' is - certainly from the 80s onwards) and to later re-evaluate them upwards, and even later still, re-evaluate them downwards. Personally, I think that the stories from the new series are yet to be fully evaluated and have yet to stand the test of time. Some of them will undoubtedly weather that test well, others will rise or fall from their current common views as the received wisdom of fandom is created, challenged and remade.

[Ace]

Frankly...ever story devides fans if you're really honest

[silver_smurfer]

I assume you are leaving the country to legally stop paying Australian taxes, which after all are what funds the purchases of the current series of Doctor Who shown on the ABC. I suspect the truth of what you say actually lies in the too stingy part!

However, as per your request, and to further the discussion... The 200 stories were rated by DWM readers and the compiled outcomes were:

Time and the Rani - 198/200 - score 42.47% (down from 46.86%)
Paradise Towers - 193/200 - score 47.96% (down from 49.55%)
Delta and the Bannermen - 180/200 - score 54.46% (up from 50.78%)
Dragonfire - 186/200 - score 52.86% (down from 58.49%)
Remembrance of the Daleks - 14/200 - score 84.24% (down from 84.86%)
The Happiness Patrol - 170/200 - score 56.66% (down from 60.88%)
Silver Nemesis - 176/200 - score 54.92% (down from 60.83%)
The Greatest Show in the Galaxy - 119/200 - score 67.73% (up from 67.28%)
Battlefield - 146/200 - score 62.80% (down from 65.24%)
Ghost Light - 76/200 - score 72.78% (down from 75.27%)
The Curse of Fenric - 30/200 - score 82.09% (down from 82.75%)
Survival - 80/200 - score 72.47% (up from 72.24%)

The score is more useful than the position, given that the number of stories has increased the number of slots there are in the table. There are more declines in score than increases (though in 4 cases, it is only part of 1%), with only Delta and the Bannermen showing a substantial improvement in its rating. However, the top 4 McCoy stories are the same, and their position relative to each other is also constant.

Of course, it is worth remembering that the findings are primarily from Doctor Who Magazine readers, and that means only a percentage of Doctor Who fans (let alone the wider viewing audience), and that since the new series commenced the make-up of that readership will have changed markedly since last time the ratings were made. It may even be the stories that haven't changed in their ratings by much are more interesting to look at than those that have, because for those stories their appeal (or lack thereof) appears to be more consistent.

There tends to be a tradition among long-term Doctor Who fans to dislike the stories that are now being shown (whenever 'now' is - certainly from the 80s onwards) and to later re-evaluate them upwards, and even later still, re-evaluate them downwards. Personally, I think that the stories from the new series are yet to be fully evaluated and have yet to stand the test of time. Some of them will undoubtedly weather that test well, others will rise or fall from their current common views as the received wisdom of fandom is created, challenged and remade.

Actually you know absolutely SFA about my finances or my spending habits and would probably be surprised at what I spend on classic Who. I just happen to be a middle aged adult who resents what's been done to a great institution.

What a silly comment about my tax money paying for the new series! I'm sure I don't agree with half the things the federal government spends its money on but if you pay taxes yourself and have ever gone up against the ATO you'd know how much choice you have in that regard. I'm afraid not buying the new series in any format and not paying for DWM is an effective way of boycotting a sad betrayal. If all of us (more those over 40) had the balls to admit the new series was shit, something might be done about it. Instead we've allowed the show to be reduced to a soap in space and allowed ourselves to be bullied by creative types only interested in furthering their careers by standing on the shoulders of genius without contributing anything, and also accepted being bullied by upstart moderators on forums who fancy themselves privy to some kind of deep wisdom because they are 'in tight" within some 'upper' fan circles.

The figures above only reinforce my argument. I think that Deltas' "improved ranking" of 180/200 is hardly anything to crow about. As I was saying there's about 4 in the upper end, a couple in the middle and the rest at the bottom and this is current fan opinion and its not really changed at all since 1998.

I might also add that the term 'fan' should not be used to infer across the board amatuerism in regards to quanatative analysis.

[silver_smurfer]

Frankly...ever story devides fans if you're really honest

No they don't. Look at the polls.

Nearly all the top 20 results from the 1998 poll, if they were complete, were released by the BBC prior to 2 Entertain taking over the task. Its not a coincidence.

[Greg]

Actually you know absolutely SFA about my finances or my spending habits and would probably be surprised at what I spend on classic Who. I just happen to be a middle aged adult who resents what's been done to a great institution.

What a silly comment about my tax money paying for the new series! I'm sure I don't agree with half the things the federal government spends its money on but if you pay taxes yourself and have ever gone up against the ATO you'd know how much choice you have in that regard. I'm afraid not buying the new series in any format and not paying for DWM is an effective way of boycotting a sad betrayal. If all of us (more those over 40) had the balls to admit the new series was shit, something might be done about it. Instead we've allowed the show to be reduced to a soap in space and allowed ourselves to be bullied by creative types only interested in furthering their careers by standing on the shoulders of genius without contributing anything, and also accepted being bullied by upstart moderators on forums who fancy themselves privy to some kind of deep wisdom because they are 'in tight" within some 'upper' fan circles.

The figures above only reinforce my argument. I think that Deltas' "improved ranking" of 180/200 is hardly anything to crow about. As I was saying there's about 4 in the upper end, a couple in the middle and the rest at the bottom and this is current fan opinion and its not really changed at all since 1998.

I might also add that the term 'fan' should not be used to infer across the board amatuerism in regards to quanatative analysis.

Well, actually, you are the one who raised you personal finances by saying you are too stingy to buy DWM, so I'll leave that one there.

However, like a lot of long-tern Who fans who feel that the new series is 'a sad betrayal', you talk a lot of nonsense.

Number 1: there is no consensus about fans of the original series, or indeed fans above a certain age, that the new series is 'a sad betrayal'. Cards on the table: I'm well over 40 and I'll tell you plainly that the new series is a creative triumph compared to large slabs of the classic series, and widely popular to boot. Given the significant changes to the way people spend their leisure time and the methods by which they can watch a TV show, it may even be more popular than ever. However, I don't know how anyone could prove it one way or another.

Number 2: What people expect from TV shows at this time is very different from what they expected in the past. Old style Doctor Who might possibly have been able to be made again, but its a no-brainer that it wouldn't be as popular, wouldn't have the same support of the show's owner, the BBC, and quite possibly wouldn't still be being made.

Number 3: the 'creatives' didn't bully anyone. The BBC chose not to revive Doctor Who without having someone they felt was appropriate to be behind it. Verity Lambert's production company approached the BBC to be funded to relaunch, and didn't get the nod - and it's not as though she didn't have a substantial reputation generally and in regard to Who in particular. But the BBC wanted Davies, and they got him - and his reputation as a writer and producer was a substantial hook for a lot of actors who may have thought twice - particularly for the first new series. Let's face it, he didn't actually need the gig, and if it had flopped he'd hardly have advanced his career.

Number 4: Even if everyone over 40 said the new series was shit, why would the BBC change? It is a creative, popular and commercial hit!

Number 5: I may personally dislike Delta and the Bannermen, but I know enough to see that an almost 5% increase in popularity is statistically significant.

Number 6: Oh, you think you are being bullied? And that I'm an upstart. Good on ya, mate. Trust me, if having people disagree with you and calling you out an foolish comments is what you think is bullying, you better hope no one actually bullies you. I'm not sure how you'd cope!

[Sulp Niar]

Actually you know absolutely SFA about my finances or my spending habits and would probably be surprised at what I spend on classic Who. I just happen to be a middle aged adult who resents what's been done to a great institution.

What a silly comment about my tax money paying for the new series! I'm sure I don't agree with half the things the federal government spends its money on but if you pay taxes yourself and have ever gone up against the ATO you'd know how much choice you have in that regard. I'm afraid not buying the new series in any format and not paying for DWM is an effective way of boycotting a sad betrayal. If all of us (more those over 40) had the balls to admit the new series was shit, something might be done about it. Instead we've allowed the show to be reduced to a soap in space and allowed ourselves to be bullied by creative types only interested in furthering their careers by standing on the shoulders of genius without contributing anything, and also accepted being bullied by upstart moderators on forums who fancy themselves privy to some kind of deep wisdom because they are 'in tight" within some 'upper' fan circles.

I'm not going to touch what Greg went on about, because really he did it very well, so...

I don't understand where this belief that "all of us (more those over 40)" are quite literally lying about liking/loving the New Series. For a start, I don't see why on earth they'd do that. It's not like fans kept quiet (and are quiet now) about their other dislikes, particularly the JNT era! Secondly, surely this unfounded belief completely contradicts what you've been arguing in this thread: you've implied that only critics/professional fans can give proper opinions on the show (the New Series is mostly loved by both; even, mostly, by Lawrence Miles); you've implied that a story is only "divisive" if there is a 50/50 split down fandom, and yet you've said that there was a wave of McCoy apologists in the 90s and that most of fandom is lying about liking the New Series. Surely you see the incredible discrepancy there?

I don't see why fans (or critics for that matter; you'll remember that DW didn't exactly have the best reputation before its revival, so surely the biased thing to do would've been to bash it?) would lie or have bizarre agendas for liking stories. What would someone gain from being a "McCoy apologist"? High-fives? From who exactly, if everyone truly dislikes McCoy? Or do they just want to be controversial? If so, why's there so many of them?

What I've been trying to get across is that stories like 'The Happiness Patrol' are incredibly divisive, and you've argued against that and yet, bizarrely enough, gone to some lengths to prove it simply by bashing it. Yes, a bunch of the McCoy stories didn't fare well at all in the DWM poll. The problem is that, as we've seen, the McCoy stories are loved and loathed by many (and no, it's not a 50/50 divide, but then how on earth could you know the percentage for sure!), and therefore it's probable, wouldn't you agree, that someone voting on, say, 'The Happiness Patrol', would give it a very high score if they loved it, and a veeeery low score if they hated it? It's the kind of story that seems to stir up intense reactions. Whereas something middling and inoffensive that no-one particularly has an opinion on will probably end up in the middle. I've never seen any fan particularly love or hate 'The Savages', for instance; for a lot of fans it just seems to be there (not helped by it being missing, of course!). And the JNT era is, for better or worse, an era that similarly incites intense reactions, and that's because it was ruthlessly scrutinised at the time, for various reasons and in various ways. You'll note that, in contrast, 'The Gunfighters' was held to be the worst Hartnell story for years... because a single fan/critic said so.

Throwing away all that, the point of the thread was to guess at what stories are most divisive based on fan reactions to them. 'The Happiness Patrol' was offered as one, and I honestly think you'd have to be wilfully blind to somehow disagree with this.

[Dog Star]

Someone mention willfully blind?
That'd be me, then.
As an "older"viewer, I love the old series. Colin Baker and Mc Coy in particular.
I also love the new series, though I acknowledge that it has changed somewhat in style.
In my (divisive) opinion -
There has NEVER been a bad Doctor Who story! Ever!
(Just that some have more dodgey moments than others. )
Four To Doomsday, from the old series, comes awfully close to being a load of dingos kidneys, and the one about the Adipose in the new series was fairly diabolical. ("Fat" monsters! Jeez! Give me the Kandyman any day.)
Fans of the show will always be divided as to which Doctor/story/producer/actor/writer/series was good or bad.
We're fans.
That's our function.

[Dog Star]

The difficulty with this thread TITLE (with all respect to Jfisher) is that it is a chimera - that is it seeks a Grail, something that cannot entirely be quantified.
How can we define the most divisive? What are our parameters? Our control subjects?
The only data we have available to us is a poll from 1998 and a recent poll in Doctor Who Magazine, both of which were derived from inaccurate maths and faulty social considerations. For every fan who responded to these polls, there were probably (and I'm only guessing here) another 50 or so that didn't. Therefore the only data we have at our disposal is hopelessly unrepresentative and inaccurate.
The nearest we could come to a decision here would be if we held our own poll on this forum.
But we'd never agree as to what stories should be nominated for most divisive.
However,
as a lifelong hunter of chimeras and seeker of Grails, I can see no reason why we shouldn't still have a lot of fun with it.
Think that I pretty much agree with Ace though. All stories are divisive.

[jfisher01]

Honestly, I started this thread for a bit of fun, and now it's turned into a full-scale war!

[Greg]

Nah, matey, it hasn't. If it had, I'd have shut it down. Not all discussion has to be genteel and passionless.

[jfisher01]

Nah, matey, it hasn't. If it had, I'd have shut it down. Not all discussion has to be genteel and passionless.

I know, but I thought discussion on this had sort of petered out ages ago...

[Sulp Niar]

Haha, I think the pro-McCoy/anti-McCoy wars will NEVER really cease, to be honest.

[RUTGER]

From my experience its The Movie. I enjoyed it, but many hated it, whilst countless others just think they have to hate it.
Delta. Well, its not terrific, but I don't see at all why this would divide the fanbase. there's nothing special about it and it doesn't have any startling revelations in it.

[ADAMK]

From personal anecdotes, I would say 'Love & Monsters' divides the fans. But maybe that is only because I love it and everyone else hates it!

BTW I am a 38 year old fan who loves both the classic & new series!

[Bomber]

If you got 100 people in one room and got them to watch Doctor Who from start to finish and they weren't deaf or blind or FANS, Delta and Happiness would almost exclusivley be rated as shite. If you got 100 Doctor Who FANS in a room the result would be almost exactly the same. Why? Because you can't polish a turd!

As, I might add, would the Horns of Nimon, Warriors from the Deep, the Twin Dilemma and the pretty awful (visually, anyway) Invasion of the Dinosaurs. And yet each would probably find someone to defend them. You can't rate McCoy's era on the basis of a couple of low-budget, campy stories that *perhaps* lack mass appeal (Paradise Towers, you know who I'm talking about), because almost every DW season has had its low points (some very low, some just mundane).

I know the question is which STORY divides the fans the most - but I'd almost go so far as to say one of the BIGGEST divisions amongst fans of the Classic series is McCoy's era as a whole. The smurf's comments about McCoy's era are quite representative of the extreme antipathy towards the 7th Doctor that certainly existed within fandom at the time and since. However I remember a lot of very positive commentary on the 7th Doctor during the late 80s/early 90s in Data Extract and DWM, and I for one would put myself on the opposite extreme to silver smurfer. Loved McCoy, thought enough of the stories were high enough quality so as not to declare the whole era a 'turd', and I have been eternally saddened that the Beeb cut McCoy off short, without even a proper end of season regeneration story. I was watching McCoy's stuff when it first came out and I don't think viewing figures are always the most reliable estimate of quality. I'd argue that Ghost Light, Remembrance of the Daleks, and Curse of Fenric stack up pretty well against stories of any DW era, and indeed that Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Survival and Silver Nemesis would generally stand up as decent stories in relation to the rest of the canon. Season 24's more flaky, and Battlefield's a real case of 'love it or despise it', and Happiness Patrol is, as previous posters have said, pretty damned divisive too.

Kim
I mainly enjoy Delta because of Raye and her lovely Welsh accent Other than that I can take it or leave it!

[Bomber]

From personal anecdotes, I would say 'Love & Monsters' divides the fans. But maybe that is only because I love it and everyone else hates it!

BTW I am a 38 year old fan who loves both the classic & new series!

Actually I'm with you there Adam - I don't mind L&M. Wouldn't say I love it, but I never saw what there was to hate about it.

[Voc76]

See now I think we are really getting into murky territory.
The problem with forums is that it allows people to anonymously and sometimes venomously state their opinions as fact and with something like Dr Who all we have is opinion.

As, I might add, would the Horns of Nimon, Warriors from the Deep, the Twin Dilemma and the pretty awful (visually, anyway) Invasion of the Dinosaurs. And yet each would probably find someone to defend them.

I have just finished watching Horns of the Nimon...and to be fair I can defend the script...but not the inedible amount of Ham there was in the acting....oh GOD was the acting terrible. Or the sets or the Nimon who somehow manage to look like insects with horns. Warriors on the Cheap and the Twin Dilemma really were terrible, although I have a real soft spot for Invasion of the Dinosaurs, the STORY isn't that bad...and who's to say that Dinosaurs really didn't look like that....
But these are just my opinions and who is to say that I objectively have better taste than anyone else, especially as you don't really know me.
The original question was what story divides the fans the most and for me it's a tie between LAM(e) and Happiness Patrol. Both of which I truly found terrible and in the "I've watched it, it's a shame I can't un-watch it" camp.
However I do believe that Bomber is right when he/she? states that the era the divides the fans the most is the McCoy era.

I'm 34 years old now (as of Saturday) and I don't know if my age has something to do with it, but that means that I'm a child of Grunge, I had most of my teenage years in the 90's and I find that me and most of the people that I know of the same age look upon the late 80's with some distane. It was a strange time for culture, some things seemed to be taken far to seriously, the post-modern aesthetic was coming into play in popular culture. People started to talk about alternative things, Alternative Music, alternative comedy, people were starting to blend genre's in mainstream media. Not always to the best effect.
Doctor Who has always reflected the time it was made in, sometimes more than others but never more to my mind than in the McCoy era. Thus for me this particular era of Dr Who is always going to be painted with this stigma, and perhaps younger or older viewers can't empathize with this. Fine, I get that. But there have always been a few spicific things that I never liked about late 80's Dr Who.

The first thing that irks me about the McCoy era is the Music, I HATE the music both intro and incidental music, not the music itself which at times wasn't bad but the terrible 80's synthesized instrumentation. Of course Doctor Who wasn't the only victim of death by synthesizer but I loved Doctor who, I didn't love those other shows. There were good reasons for it, one man with a Yamaha Dx-7 was much more affordable than even a small orchestra or a bunch of Oboes (if your talking about Pertwee Dalek stories). But also in 1985 sounding like that was considered in! Pity it was 1989. Ugh.

The second thing that irked me about the McCoy era was McCoy, now I know lots of people loved him, yes, yes. I know and I'm not saying that I have a problem with Sylvester, I used to watch him in "Eureka" and loved him, but to me he wasn't a good Doctor. His portrayal swings wildly from foolish to upsetting without it being a competed piece, his character never feels whole to me. Now this is not all McCoys fault, the scripting has a large part to play in this. Which brings me to......

The stories;
God's, Candymen, Magic, more Magic.....The 80's had some terrible story telling where high-strangeness abounded "Oddball" stories were in and "High-Concept" was just a buzzword for "Batshit insane" personally I blame Michael Moorcock but that's just me. The writers tried to push the boundaries of Dr Who and failed to my mind. Not that there weren't good stories. (Although "Remembrance" is the only on that springs to mind.) But blurring the lines between fantasty/sci-fi and tv-soap. (Silver Nemesis!!! Oh lord of mercy....how terrible thou art.)

Apart from that it was great.